tv Up W Chris Hayes MSNBC January 14, 2012 4:00am-6:00am PST
for the patriots and there's the curse versus curse thing and the window in my office kept flying open on its own with nobody touching it. it happened twice. and it's friday 13th. so there, i'm scared. "up w/ chris hayes" is next. good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. a luxury cruise ship ran aground off italy's tuesday can coast. three are dead and four more reported missing. iraqi police say a suicide bomber killed at least 30 people in basra this morning. right now i am joined by vince warren, executive director of the center for constitutional rights and a professor of politics and international affairs at princeton's woodrow wilson's school.
alexis mcgill johnson making her first appearance on "up." and dave roberts, staff writer for a website. we have to talk about the republican field and what's going on. it's hard to pinpoint most unexpected most of the presidential campaign so far. newt gingrich and rick perry are attacking mitt romney from the left for his record at bain capital. romney is forced to defend himself against accusations he sucked millions of dollars out of the companies he acquired leaving behind a trail of unemployed workers. to see how far things have gone, i want to you to take a look at two pieces of film of the devastation left behind by predatory capitalism.
one is from a film, one is from "when mitt romney came to town." >> we found out they will shut the plant on tuesday. we don't deserve what they're doing to us. it really hurts, because like i said, this is my second -- it's really hard. i'm going to miss all of them. i'm going to miss them, and i don't think anybody on this planet deserve what they are doing to us. >> when they have families, they have little ones, their livelihood was there. they were making a good wage. and this company comes in and they knocked it all the way, they knocked their wages down. they take their jobs away.
and eventually they close the plan the. >> it's obvious because they would never make ayla tino protagonist in a republican attack. who knows, now they're going after capitalism. so maybe -- i'm really amazed by this. i think that republicans have always sort of been remarkably disciplined. one of the -- to me the defining feature of the republican primary so far is that no one ever has to pay a price for being too far to the right and everyone always gets attacked from the right. basically no attacks from the left. that oversimplifies what the political spectrum is and where this issue falls. i'm shocked. did you think it was happening? >> what's fascinating is not just from the left of romney, it's from the left of the democratic party. >> of course it is. >> finance driven capitalism is at the heart of the democratic party. this is from outside the spectrum. >> this is from outside the spectrum and to your point,
steve rattner who made his fortune, whose brother runs ccr, isn't that right? or used to? >> used to. >> the rattner family, an amazing family. he made his fortune doing private equity had a piece in politico. of course he's a democrat, worked for obama, was the one who sort of spearheaded the whole auto revival. he's saying exactly your point, look, let's not get crazy here. yeah, i'm sort of amazed this has happened. what do you think it says about the politics? is this a desperate attempt or is there something there, some traction there among republican primary voters? >> this is a glorious calamitous opera. it is wonderful to sit back and watch. you know, my view is that this has as much to do with the 99% frame that the republicans have been struggling to figure out what to deal with. first they hated it, then they loved it and when they realized everybody else saw themselves as 99%, they began to get on the
banned wagon. they're going way off message, they're completely short-sighted. this is going to collapse like a house of cards and i'm going to watch it. >> they're going way off message for half the republican party but not way off message for tea party. >> no. i disagree. but continue. i'll let you make your point before i disagree. >> well, i mean, again, the sense that something's deeply unfair -- >> sure. >> that wall street got bailed out and main street didn't, you can blame government rather than blaming the corporations. that's the left/right deference. there's still a deep sense that something is really wrong when a lot of people walk off with billions and others are losing their jobs. there i think they are toing into something that's there on the right and left. >> that taps into something, that's the really interesting question to me here. rather than an empirical matter. we've seen the negatives for romney have increased, the positives for gingrich have gone up in south carolina. and the polling looked like it
was closing. the polls that came out in a day or so, it looks like romney is bouncing back. that to me speaks to -- there's always a question about is the tea party conservatism in a new rebranded in which case this won't be very appealing? or does it have something to do with the particular sense that people have of the american social contract that's been torn us under in front of our eyes. you see this phrase rigged game manifesting itself as a cora tore cal, you know, hearts of what the problem with america is. >> the dirty secret of the republican party is that the republican establishment and the republican base share a hatred of government but they don't share the republican establishment's love for the rich. >> right. >> if you look at polls, the republican base don't love rich people like the establishment does. this undercuts the establishment and goes straight to the base. i think it's effective. >> i think it's genius ad, actually. i wish i created it. no. i feel like what gingrich is
doing is really trying to show the contrast between romney who's playing right into it, right? he's the one who's talking about you all are envious of the fact that i've made this mean and i can afford $10 million homes. so i think that really trying to find that chink in romney's armor which i think has been hard so far, i think it's brilliant. >> what's interesting is, they tried -- there's always a tttac you would have expected in the republican primary, the biggest one is obama care. i'm using that in quotes. you know, it kept going flat and they kept raising it and it kept going flat. this seems to be the only thing that's getting at him, which is fascinating. it was the thing that i think everybody knew would be raised in the general election. remember, when romney ran in '94 we talked to randy johnson who worked at a plant that was closed. we talked to him last weekend.
he and his co-workers drove out to massachusetts and toured around in '49 when they cut these devastating ads against romney. this is not new but you didn't expect to see it here. >> he seemed totally unprepared. his response was you're just jealous because i'm rich. if you must talk about inequality, talk about it in quiet rooms. >> let me play that clip. this is mitt romney. matt lauer asked a good question of mitt romney. doesn't that seem like a genuine issue? >> are there no fair questions about the distribution of wealth without it being seens aenvy, though? >> you know, i think it's fine to talk about those things in quiet rooms and discussions about tax policy and the like but the president has made this part of his campaign rally everywhere he goes we hear him talking about millionaires and billionaires and executives and
wall street. it's a very envy-oriented attack, approach, and i think it will fail. >> i love that. the fact that your cousin's an alcoholic and his wife is leaving him, that's something to talk about in a quiet room, some awful, family secret. what do you talk about in quiet rooms? you wanted to say something? >> i think democrats ought to worry that all this is playing out now. >> yes. i agree. >> an awful lot of this is the democrat playbook against romney when he's the candidate. this early round, "a," is giving hem a chance to see what works and "b" is going to blunt the force of what i think was a lot of the opposition research playbook. >> i think that's a good point. i made this point on lawrence's show the other night. if you think about -- rush limbaugh call me insane for saying this. i was very proud. my first limbaugh moment. if you think about jeremiah
wright tape which came out in april, would barack obama be president if that came out in october? extremely unclear. genuinely unclear if he'd be the president of the united states. because it came out in april, it built, with it built and he had an amazing, majestic speech that will be read hundreds of years from now. maybe mitt romney should give his version of that speech about private equity. like i can no more walk away from bain than my grandmother. you know? >> private equity in private rooms, you know. >> exactly. >> what i thought was interesting is that the discussion around jobs, which of course in the economy -- >> that's what started this. >> but it had been going on largely without a discussion of income and equity. >> right. >> and the divide. >> good point. >> to have that discussion, being divorced from that seems silly to me. i'm not so sure that when the democrats come along that they'll do much better in public rooms talking about income and equity. that's what we're talking about. >> that's one of the main
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is capitalism really about the ability of a handful of rich people to manipulate the lives of thousands of other people and walk off with the money? or is that in fact somehow a little bit of a flawed system? and so i do draw a distinction between looting a company, leaving behind broken families and broken neighborhoods and leaving behind a factory that should be there. >> newt gingrich making a bid to give his speech to the general assembly at occupy wall street. here's what he just said, i love
this. is capitalism really about the ability of a handful of rich people to manipulate of lives of thousands of other people and walk off with the money? yes, newt, it is. have you been paying attention? what do you think capitalism is? that's what's so remarkable. they've gone from the bain record, mitt romney said i created 100,000 jobs. everybody said, wait a second. a discussion of bain and private equity to a discussion of capitalism per se, the nature of capitalism, what it is and how it may be in the words of newt gingrich, a flawed system. it's remarkable to me. i cannot remember a single time in my political life that i have seen an open conversation about capitalism, american capitalism and what it means and what it does and what its benefits are and what its costs are ever. >> you cannot imagine a democrat, a national democrat, bringing that up at all. they would be terrified. >> the opposite is socialism.
>> bernie sanders would raise it. there are national democrats that would. it's hard to imagine them -- >> none that could run for president. >> could be front-runner. >> anybody can run. >> -- would say things like this. he ran for president. >> fair point. but there's no -- one of the things that's interesting. what is the opposite of predatory capitalism? kinding, gentler capitalism? social democracy is the opposite. no one is going to touch that. >> i think he's trying to harkin back to the retro feeling. we're going back to the 1950s when the america we all dreamed about, when there were manufacturing jobs. this is me giving him ideas. but i do think, that it fits in line with the kind of society that he's talking about. >> that's interesting. also with the rick santorum speech on the night of the iowa
caucus when he harkined back to his father working in a coal mine and his kind of manufacturing. what's interesting is you hit deep ideological bedrock very quickly. the reason for that, on the left we hear that nostalgia all the time. that's an absolute common thing you hear on the left when you critique modern finance capitalism, it is to harkin back to the great compression as paul kremlin calls it. 1950s, '60s and '70s. good wage jobs, higher union density. that nostalgia is not unknown for progressives. >> but the democratic nostalgia is for a set of laws and regulations that are used to restrain capitalism. the republican nostalgia seems to be for nicer corporate titans. >> do you think that's what it is, though? i think you're getting at something deep. >> it's more american dream.
more like -- what people are rebelling against are the excesses of capitalism, the intense predatory nature of it, not the idea that you can create opportunity. >> i found it interesting, rattner talks about this. steve rattner is not the brother of -- footnote. important i'm not aunnoing to people they're related on television when they turn out not to be. but i think that when you look at this -- the idea that you want to segregate what bain did from good capitalism. there's bad capitalism and bad capitalism. predatory capitalism. rattner in his political piece, bain was one of the better of the private equity firms. they did less financial engineering, they did more managing. to me, whether that's true or not, i'm not in a position to judge because i haven't dove into the record, et cetera. creative destruction which is now a term, which everyone is talking about, is ugly up close. it's a sledgehammer, it cracks
them over the skull. it destroys towns, right? if you believe in this, in the system, you believe other people pick up the pieces somewhere else and that money goes somewhere productive and the jobs grow in that. when faced with that, when faced with the actual reality of that, an actual debate in conversation about what creative destruction looks like and what it means, i think people are genuinely skeptical that it does work out, right? >> that's one way to slice it. the other is, is it capitalism that makes things or capitalism that just delivers financial products? that's the president's point. the president was talking about, look, we need capitalism that produces things that says made in america, not derivatives, not sliced and diced, mortgages, risk products. so there's another way to look at it, which is not about creative destruction. which is really about what do we produce? and are we producing these elaborate financial products that accrue to only a few or are we producing things that create new industries, new people can get these jobs and we make
ipads. >> that's a good distinction. >> the problem i'm having, generally, is that we're talking about jobs but work -- the only thing workers really get out of capitalism is jobs. that's basically all they get. they don't get the benefits, they don't get the large economic incentives. they don't get a lot of control over how their jobs work. when people get thrown out of jobs, the question is is it the type of capitalism that threw too many people out of jobs as opposed to the fact that basically the system doesn't really work for the workers? you have a small piece of the pie, frankly. i think that's the issue that's coming to the floor. it has less to do -- i mean, it's been spirited by these huge gains in the bailouts and different things like that and the joblessness. i think the fundamental question is, even if you're re-investing in america and bringing jobs back home, that's all well and good and more people will have jobs but the basic system, really doesn't benefit anybody beyond -- >> wow.
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we're talking about the unexpected turn of the republican primary has taken, to quote mitt romney, free markets are now on trial. the first witness for the prosecution is none other than newt gingrich. republicans are finding out is an amoral maniac, as he has always been. pugh had a poll of people though there was a lot of conflict between rich and poor. that's coming up in 66%.
there are other areas of conflict, people's perception of racial conflict. there's an interesting in racial conflict and increase in class conflict. to think about whether this is going to work in south carolina is one thing. the other thing to think about is, there are interests at play that are not happy. "the new york times" is starting their pushback. there was something that didn't get a lot of attention but i thought was representative of things happening beneath the surface. barry wynn, hedge fund guy, supporter of rick perry, pulls his support for perry over the bain capital attacks. >> i don't think you can be on both sides. if you attack bain it's too broad a brush to paint with. >> you're with us or against us. >> the thing i keep thinking are what are newt gingrich's cell phone calls like? people calling up, bro, do you know what i do? i maxed out for you. i bundled for you. do you understand where that
money came from, what i do for a living? that's the fundamental issue. i think there's a degree to which this has rhetoric. on both sides of the aisle, democrat or republican, you're going to run real quick into the fact that there's a donor class that a lot of their friends do private equity. you know what i mean? i think that we're going to see -- all of a sudden we're seeing the ship turn around quickly on the republican side, where there's a moment of are we going to defend bain? here's bill kristol who sort of seemed a little spooked by the bain attack and didn't want to give a full defense. he says, yikes, if this is where some in the conservative government moment and republican party are inclined to go, four cheers for capitalism, good luck. it's a recipe for political disaster and intellectual sterility. this will be scrubbed from the website.
a week from now. newt is saying maybe they should take the ads off. the ones he's running. dave, what do you think? do you think this can last or will this be shut down by the donor class. >> it's a good question. it's hard to see how democrats can sustain this line of attack. the occupy movement has driven this to the forefront. it's exposed a core vulnerability in the republican party. the core of their policy program has always been doing things for rich people, cutting taxes for rich pell. that's the one thing that never changes despite the rhetoric and everything else. and now, you have this anti-rich feeling. and like you see bill kristol squir squirming. >> i don't think it's a really -- >> donors have egos? >> they have egos, they have feelings. i don't think it's about them. >> if you cut me, do i not
bleed. >> bleed green admittedly. >> i think what donors really fear, business media really fears is popularism. it's not being able to control it. people can connect to each other in different ways. >> this is the most interesting dynamic for the president in his re-election battle, precisely this. i think if he runs against romney, we've seen this confluence of events that have perfectly set him to run against romney as the candidate of the 1%. everything about it is -- his record is bain, the way he looks. he exudes kind of the guy who fired you. forget -- i forget -- >> that was santorum? >> your boss. everything is teed up for the president to run that way. yet, if he goes too far in that direction there will be a bunch of op-eds like steve rattners saying whoa, whoa, whoa. >> i don't think the president could go there if he wanted to.
his campaign has been populous appeal, populous marketing. on the outside. but on the inside, it looks similar to a moderate right position. >> it has four years of policy now. >> to back that up. >> i don't think -- i think i don't agree with that. >> i think the democrats are almost as vulnerable on this as the republicans are. really, you call it the donor class. it's the donor class, equally to the democrats as the republicans. a little less with obama with small donations. where is he fund-raising? he's sitting in new york with the same people as the republicans are. >> that's partly true but i also think that romney himself, the figure of romney changes the balance of that equation. >> fortunately for the president. >> i don't think it would be a harder thing to tee up the populism argument. mitt romney is the perfect personification to run this campaign. they've given indications that's what they will pursue. the fact that they did this insourcing the same week as the
president, that was not an accident that they did it the same week that bain is getting nailed. >> do you remember when there was a populous anger at the banks and obama came out and said something about fat cats. he has been back pedaling ever since. the entire financial class went after him. he hired bill daly to apologize. >> it's his whole campaign. >> that's ann marie's point, if you begin to launch out and really focus on that divide, you can't rely on your base that basically -- not your base but the people who fund you, to get you elected. >> one of the things we'll talk about tomorrow is elizabeth warren's campaign. can you do it if you get enough small money? can you carve out a path to victory if you get enough small
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boumediene. this is him in may of 2009. promising to close guantanamo, a few months after signing the executive order. this is one of the signature campaign promises. here he is. >> the record's clear, rather than keeping us safer, the prison at guantanamo has weakened national security. it is a rallying cry for our enemies. it sets back the willingness of our allies to work with us in fighting an enemy that operates in scores of countries. by any measure, the cost of keeping it open far exceed the complications involved in closing it. that's why i argued that it should be closed throughout my campaign and that is why i ordered it closed within one year. >> that's very hard to watch right now given the fact that it's still open. it's very hard. he just signed the defense
authorization act which explicitly bans funding. vince, center for constitutional rights where you work has been representing inmates at guantanamo since basically the very beginning. >> right. >> i want to play one more clip, because i want to show the political terrain this is all operating on. these are democrat senators reacting to the president trying to close guantanamo the first time he tried to do it. >> we will never allow terrorists to be released into the united states. this is what this is all about. this is the best way to approach this. i think the president will come up with a plan. once that is given to us, we will debate that. >> we ought be very, very careful about releasing anybody right now. >> well, i think right now until we sort this out, the answer is yes. >> individuals who are charged with international terrorism should be classified as enemy
combatants and i have stated many times i do not believe they belong in our country, they do not belong in our courts. they do not belong in our prisons. >> that was -- vince warren, the question i have for you, who is to blame for the fact that guantanamo is still open? >> all three branches of government have failed the men at guantanamo. the most rooen recent is congress. president obama was delivering us the bad news that he was going to have classes of detainees that would basically never get out of guantanamo. the way that is right now, ten years later, you go to trial, which you can't now do because congress restricted it. the other way is to be released to third countries for people who have been cleared for release. you can't do that because congress is restricted it. the third way is in a body bag, quite frankly. the last person to leave guantanamo was in a body bag.
congress is really messing this up but obama has not done the leadership we thought he was going to do. >> congress in the national defense authorization act, they barred exchanges with third countries? you can't get people out? >> they have restricted the exchanges with third countries. of the 89 people that are in guantanamo that the government says, these folks are cleared for release, they can go -- >> there's 89 people of the 171 that the government says they can go? >> the cia, the fbi, the department of defense say they can go. this is a unanimous decision. congress restricted the ability of those people to leave. there's a difficulty certification process. >> my exclusive interview with a man freed from guantanamo bay after more than seven years captivity there, right after this. just, just one second. ♪ what are you looking at? don't look up there. why are you looking up? ♪
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we do talk about guantanamo it's about the politics of it. there's very little said, these days, about who the prisoners are, how they got there and who's guilty of what. in october of 2001, six algerian men in bosnia were arrested. after a three-month investigation, bosnian investigators found insufficient evidence to justify their arrest. the bosnian supreme court ordered their immediate release. here's what happened next as reported by "nbc nightly news" that night. >> reporter: police vans carry them away from the prison in sarajevo right into the hands of u.s. military forces who immediately took them into custody. angry mobs of muslims who claimed the u.s. is waging war against islam and not terrorism tried to block the handoff of the muslim prisoners but were beaten back by riot police. the six suspects are accused of attempting to blow up the u.s.
embassy in sarajevo. >> they would become some of the first detainees at guantanamo bay. one of those prisoners was lakhdar boumediene. the u.s. government stopped accusing the men but lakhdar was held for seven years without charge or explanation. he's a free man today in part because of a supreme court decision that bears his name, the rule that terror suspects held at guantanamo have a constitutional right to challenge their detention in federal court. yesterday, with the help of an arabic translator, i interviewed lakhdar boumediene from his home in nies, france. it was one of the hardest interviews and one of the most effective. here's some of our discussion. take a look. >> translator: i arrived to guantanamo and they removed the black bag from my hand and the muffs from my ear and blindfolds. it was a big shock to me. and i said to myself, is this
america that respects human rights? during the preliminary investigations -- interrogations, i mean, i thought america was a great country and that there is justice and freedom and human rights. and that they were realize within a day or two, or maybe a month, you know, that they would realize that i am innocent and they will let me go home to my family. but it was totally the contrary. this is something that i will never forget. they were interrogating me for hours and hours during the night, midnight until 6:00 a.m. the situation changed in 2004 and i got a major interrogator. i don't really remember his real name. and i used to call him the elephant. and he said, your case is not a case of the u.s. embassy.
it's not a case of terrorism and it's not a case of armed group. no. your case is -- it's a political case. it's a purely political. if bush makes an agreement with your president in algeria, you know, we can probably reach an agreement. here i receive orders and i have to follow these orders and i have to ask you these questions, whether you respond to my questions or refuse to respond to my questions, i don't care. my job is to ask you questions, but you have nothing to do with terrorism, you know, your case is a purely political case. >> at a certain point you decided to go on a hunger strike to protest your detention there. what happened when you decided to go on a hunger strike? >> translator: they brought me like a special meal, like it was like some potatoes and carrots
and they covered it with some sauce to remove the bad odor and then they said you have 15 days to eat this. you're going to eat this kind of food because you provoked the problem with the soldier. it's going to be your food for lunch and for dinner. i said thank you very much for the meal and i'm not going to eat it until, god willing, i am going to be moved from here. >> in america, the word torture has a very specific meaning. it's very important we understand when you say you were tortured after obama came in, what specifically was done to you? >> translator: specifically, when i was on a hunger strike and here i can explain to you, then you will tell me, you will tell me, whether it's torture or not. americans will decide whether it's torture or not. from the very first day, for 2 1/2 years, they knew my left
sinus was blocked. that was before i came to jail, i was taken to jail. the tube could not get inside. so that feeling was on the right side only. they knew that. this is what was registered for the nurses and the physicians with regard to the feeling. but when the nurse comes, they try for five to ten minutes on this side of the nose and then they hit the bone. you tell me, was this torture or not? the real face of america is guantanamo. that's the real face of america is guantanamo. no justice. there is no human rights, you know, people are suffering, torturing, you know. and you know, there are so many reasons, we're not going to list
them in this program, but this is the real face of america. >> would it make a difference to you if the government admitted they made a mistake and formally apologized? >> translator: well, of course things will change. many things will change. the first thing -- the first thing that i will get my rights here, so i can start a new life. now i don't have anything. i lost all my life. how can i start from scratch? how can i start? now when i go and try to find a job and i give them my cv, i don't know what you call it, the cv or something, they ask me between 2002 and 2009 what did you do and this is where the shock is when i -- when the interviewer hears the word guantanamo and prarenthesis, thy
see prison, forget it, they will never call you. you're not going to hear anything. i want to address this question to the american people. i am asking you, if one of you is imprisoned in america for 7 1/2 years, deprived of his wife, his children and life, he lost his job and his kids cannot say in front of their peers our father was in prison. when this guy is released from jail after seven years, is he compensated? you know, i leave the american people to answer this question. i leave it to them. american government, you know, is an arrogant government. until this very moment they don't want to admit they made a mistake towards lakhdar boumediene. this is the least they could have done. the american government could
have done is to admit guilt here, admit they made a mistake. >> i want to talk with you guys about that interview when we get back. when i grow up, i want to fix up old houses. ♪ [ woman ] when i grow up, i want to take him on his first flight. i want to run a marathon. i'm going to own my own restaurant. when i grow up, i'm going to start a band. [ female announcer ] at aarp we believe you're never done growing. thanks, mom. i just want to get my car back. [ female announcer ] discover what's next in your life. get this free travel bag when you join at aarp.org/jointoday.
we're back. we just didsha? >> it's i credibly powerful to look at this experience from the detainees perspective or former detainees perspective. he was represented in the supreme court case. the issues have so verifyived and it gets down to the question that they knew that my left sinus was clogged so there were consciously jamming the feeding tube into my left sinus because
they know it would make me uncomfortable. i think that's -- i think the other important piece is that over 600 detainees have been repleased from guantanamo and he's got a very similar experience. it's almost impossible to get a job. hard to get a job, you know, if you get a bad reference from your last employer much less if you're in guantanamo for seven years. it's an incredibly important and moving experience to hear it from his perspective. >> it casts a harsh light on the legalistic debate over what is and isn't torture that has been going on in this country a long time. that looks silly in light of a real human being experiencing it. >> funny you raise that. he kept using the word torture and, obviously, through a translator. i don't know what the specific word in arabic is and whether it has the specific meaning. if you're inside it, you're torturing and if you're outside -- one point we didn't play this part. i said when you say you're
tortured, what do you mean? he said to be in prison seven years away from your daughter is when you've done nothing wrong. if that's not torture, what is torture? i guess that is a fair point, i mean, right? this question of what is in the army field manual and those are important questions obviously. very important about what kind of interrogation methods we use but he talked about having to urinate himself because he was just locked down somewhere and had to go to the bathroom. you tell me. is that torture? >> as you know, our family worked on -- and what the conflict between what the american empire is about and what the american principles are and the ability to lift that up into culture and to get more americans to think about it. it's still a hurdle to continue to have this conversation. >> i have to confess, a, i found the interview hard because i felt implicated. i do think at the end of the day, in my heart of hearts there
is the precognitive, you know, soul is that we are the good guys at the end of the day. i still hold on to that and to have to confront what he was describing and say guantanamo is the real face of america. the sheer rage and bitterness. there was part of me that looks preposterous and patronizing in retrospect. i thought i would be a mandela-esque saintly figure who would forgive us for having done this to him and i understand you guys went through a crazy period after 9/11 and no hard feelings but, no, he is incredibly bitter and has a right to be and having to look that in the face. it is so remote and talk about the it's bad for our relations, guantanamo. the actual visceral meaning what it was, to step through what it would be like if you're a parent and taken from your children and the people you love, you know, with bag put over your head to be that powerless.
he kept listing these small indigities and the grand scheme of things seem somewhat trivial. i say i want this food and i wouldn't get it. we will be right back and talk more about guantanamo when we come back. is it fast? it's got 10 speeds, my friend. ♪ is it fast? it's got a lightning bolt on it, doesn't it? ♪ is it fast? i don't even know if it's street-legal. ♪ is it safe? oh, yeah. it's a volkswagen. [ male announcer ] the security of a jetta. one of nine volkswagen models named a 2012 iihs top safety pick. ♪ got you in a stranglehold, baby ♪
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i'm with scottrade. i'm with scottrade. and i'm loving every minute of it. [ rodger riney ] at scottrade, we give you commission-free etfs, no-fee iras and more. come see why more investors are saying... i'm with scottrade. good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes with vince warren and the center of constitutional rights and maurice slaughter formerly with the obama state department and alexis johnson and david roberts. we just played an interview i did with lakdar who was imprisoned with guantanamo and now in france. he was never tried with a crime. and we were talking about the legacy of guantanamo and the
rage that it has provoked around the world. emery, you worked in the state department. this is something that you spent time thinking about in a formal way. you wanted to say something about what it does do for our foreign policy. >> well, the first thing to say in the state department, to the extent there have been people released from guantanamo, many have been release to do other countries before this most recent congressional bill. and state department was in the very odd position of going around to other countries saying would you please take these people? no, we won't. our congress says they are too dangerous to release to the united states but would you please take them? which is not a great position to be in. but the worst of that is here is a man who said when i was taken to the united states, i thought well, of course, they will find out in a month that i'm innocent. this is the land of justice and the rule of law and i know i'll be vindicated. seven years later, he says guantanamo is the face of the united states. that is still what millions of people around the world see. when president obama said this
is a huge cost to us in terms of fighting terrorism and in terms of standing for what we say we believe in, that's still there. and it's going to be there as far as we can see because we're now holding over 150 people with no way of seemingly ever releasing them or trying them. >> the foreign policy aspect of this is bizarre in this third-party transfer idea where -- i mean, i remember there are some chinese muslims, ethnic group called the weegers and released to a tropical island? >> palau. >> crazy photos of guys getting ice cream and surfing and swimming on the beach! just so surreal. it was like you look around. you're like we have these people who are chinese nationals and can't send them back to china because they will be tortured in china. that ethnic group has
contentious relationships with the chinese state. palau, how do you feel about these guys? >> it gets even more bizarre than that. some of the weegers are in a poor in europe and some in palau. but some in guantanamo where obama administration when the court was going to release them into the united states, obama administration said we don't want you to do that because we have the immigration authority who gets released from guantanamo into the united states so we will oppose that. now still folks that are in jail. it is everybody knows that these guys are innocent. there is not a question! >> not even a question. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> and then now, china is putting -- china has been putting pressure on other countries. >> we will take them. we will take them. >> yeah, absolutely. >> i want to talk a little bit -- it seems we are at this dead end.
people i've talked to at the white house they are frustrated with the situation as well. i do think if they had their druthers and if barack obama were king and could do -- i think they would have shut guantanamo on day one. you're looking at me somewhat skeptically. i guess -- the first vote was 90-6 against. we should remember, 90-6. what is the way out here? i guess that is my -- how do we get -- right now, it seems this kafka-esque black hole we are in and nobody paying were in more attention to this. how do we close guantanamo? give me a road map. >> the look i gave up was not skepticism. i was wondering what they would get their druthers. the road map is this. have you a congressional problem. you have a public relations problem. and then you have a state -- department of state issue. the congressional road map is this. that congress has done a big
flip and they now want to stop obama from closing guantanamo even for the innocent people. the democrats even. because -- only because obama wants to do it. they pass the ndaa, which obama signed into law, even with reservations about it, but he had reservations last time they sent it in and one of the reservations he said last time i'm going to veto this bill when it comes up again, which it hasn't. they have to deal with that issue. the portions that restrict -- needs to be repealed. >> that is the first legislative step. you can't do anything if they are restricting the funding for any transfer out of guantanamo. >> absolutely. then you have to get the men -- released and the people you want to try, tried. so the druthers piece is saying, yes, we are actually now going to be in the era of federal trials, yet again in this country. we are going to push these people to trial. i really don't care what the mayor of new york, mike bloomberg, has to say about it. last time i checked, he wasn't the president of the united states. >> you're talking about khalid
shaikh mohammed. he is alleged to be one of the masterminds of al qaeda. apprehended in pakistan and transferred to guantanamo partly i think by the bush administration, right? partly as a kind of propaganda ploy. once khalid sheik mohammed was in guantanamo, we just brought him in. when you talk about the politics i want to get back to in a second. guantanamo issue, people forget. this was a consensus position in american politics like so much that consensus fallen apart and like john mccain wanted to close guantanamo. i think what happened was as soon as the president wanted to do it, all of a sudden, it became a polarizing issue and all of a sudden the republicans ran away from it and saw political hay to be made out of it and now we have completely reversed on it.
during the 2008 campaign we should remember this was a consensus issue. >> wanted to double it? >> mitt romney did. romney had double guantanamo. it was mentioned in an interview. it made me think what information? exactly, what information if you're an inmate in guantanamo is filtering in? you're hearing things like mitt romney saying on the campaign trail in 2008. so the road map is the first step, though, has to go through congress is what you're saying. there is a statutory ban of transporting people we're screwed. >> if khalid sheik mohammed was tried in new york we have to agree he was waterboarded over 180 times and a lot of evidence we have against him which i also think he is a very bad guy, would also to be thrown out. it is possible he would be acquitted on some charges. now, that's what you have to accept the possibility of if you say, all right, we're putting this guy -- >> if you're the president's political adviser, yeah, if we
can get that trial verdict to come down two weeks before the election, it's a big not guilty for khalid sheik mohammed. barnstorm through america and smooth sailing. >> just pointing out. >> obviously, that is the politics aspect of it. to me the deeper issue deeper than congress and deeper than the president is that core. >> that's right. >> that political gut thing that it does in people's mind that these people are going to get off, that the rule of law, that the process of law is insufficient to the evil with which we are faced, right? >> because we broke it in the first place. hang on! because we tortured them. it would not be otherwise. >> we're in a huge problem in this country if we are politicizing the basic core concepts of due process and hearing that all the time. do these guys get their miranda rights? these are core principles not up for debate and we have to literally live in support this system has worked 200 years and not change it in an election
year. >> and surprise serial murderers all the time. >> you take the arguments thrown around they might be let off or too fancy pants to read them their rights. extend those arguments, there no reason they couldn't apply to domestic criminals as well. >> absolutely. >> the whole thing is just laughing at the basic rights we have established for domestics too. it's a little creepy. like how close does that come to domestic policy before we really start to get nervous? >> it comes really close in the national defense authorization act which was just signed and not vetoed by president obama, because one of the provisions there is that it gives the president the choice as to whether people who are captured in the united states where u.s. citizens gives the president the choice whether they should be tried by criminal trials in federal court or held militarily or held indefinitely. that is where this whole thing is going. >> the point is we don't have,
right now, if you close guantanamo physically, we still have not rectified the fact we now have this illegal system that has the general legal trial by the federal government. the u.s. attorney prosecutes you and you have a right to a trial jury by your peers and whatever other ad hoc system created in the last ten years as a part of it
but i have to say even i, with a tv show, struggled to figure out ways to give it the attention it deserves. particularly because it's hard to find a news hook for the slow, gradual melting of the planet. ironically, news about the lack of coverage gives us an excuse to talk about it today. media coverage of climate change stories are down according to daily climate.org. you can see the spike in 2007. that is mt. goramanjara. that is solely a thousand percent due to al gore's film "convenient truth." part of the problem, of course, here is it's a very abstract story. the epa is trying to bring climate change home. their website at ghgdata.gov.
i work in manhattan there. a little dot. i pull it up. you see the icons around my office seven power plants emitting more than 3 million metric tons of equivalent. you can do the same thing where you live. even as good as that is on epa's part it doesn't make the states hit home. joining us for a conversation is battle hardened veteran of the climate science war is michael nat from penn state university and co-author of the intergovernmental panel on climate change report. thanks for coming here. >> great to be here, chris. >> david, you guys are in sort of parts of the same thing. i think you're doing amazing work and i read you all the time. i think griss.org you guys do incredible stuff. it is really hard, right? i mean, what challenges do you
face in trying to tell this story day in and day out? this is your beat. i get to say, you know, some weeks, this happened and becky becky becky stand. you know? but you're just like we're still screwed. it's monday. it's still happening. it's tuesday, it's still happening. >> well, you said as you said at the top there, the phenomenon itself is a very poor fit with the traditional strictures of journalism which require, a, some sort of news happening. and, b, they really want human beings and human conflict involved and these are glaciers and atmospheric concentrations. i'm a dirty blogger so i don't have to obey those strictures. the media cover it as a science story and it's traditionally science reporters who cover it and the science section of the newspaper, got bless science and
all scientists, but it's a niche readership. >> boring! nerds! >> you said it. the whole conversation is surreal. to me the most fascinating thing to think about in the world but the fascinating part of it what does it mean for us and follow possess and the way we live in the world and what does it mean -- what do we have to change about what we do and how does it tie into the story of inclement aspect? fascinating aspects of clim change but in the traditional media we are spinning our wheels and because we have this concerted effort to not let the media get past the science story because we are stuck spinning our wheels. people tune in and are like that again? and they tune back out. the media can't past to the more interesting aspects. >> i want to talk about these two steps. you talk about it in your new book, michael, the hockey stick
and the clim waate wars which y just wrote. there we go. there is two steps. accepting the scientific consendus is one. industrialization means burning fossil fuels. increase concentrations and traps more heat and that heat warms the surface of the heat. over a long time that trend continues and we warm far past what has been the norm for the last thousand years is the basic scientific consensus, all right? fine. the second part of the story you say is the interesting story. i agree. is about the revolution that has to happen in everything in certain ways. in global governance and how we live and where we live and what we eat and how big our houses is and -- houses are. nice. and where our kids go to school and how far away they are and how many trips taken in the car. all of that. everything the face of american
life and global life at a deep level, right? am i wrong or overstating it? >> how is that not an interesting topic? the whole conversation is surreal to me. the problem is once you're writing about, say, new forms of energy you're not technically writing about climate change and it doesn't show up on the surveys. what you're writing about getting more kids to walk to school. the distance between that and climate change is quite vast but like you say, it's sort of climate change is the background condition against which a lot of interesting stories play out but they don't necessarily come off as climate change stories. in some sense, i think the surveys are a little misleading but i would like to see more stories about, you know, what sort of changes in our daily practices or practices or politics do we need? >> we could be having a good faith debate about what to do about the problem. there is a good faith debate to be had about the policy matters. >> costs and benefits?
>> absolutely. and what we need to be doing in the way of adaptation, as well as mitigation. but, unfortunately, the sort of forces of climate change denial. i don't call them skeptic. some call them climate change concept tic sk skeptics. they are deniers and they have attempted to preempt that good faith discussion we could be having. what that means is we have already delayed for five, ten, 15 years the actions that we could have been taking to try to stabilize greenhouse gas concentrations below levels where they become a danger. >> that points to my own emotional reaction in this conversation. i spend tyke reading your book, i get a panic response like someone has just locked me in a coffin. no, i seriously get this clause
telectro -- claustrophobic reaction. it's terrifying! >> you know what relieves that feeling? doing something! >> exactly. >> and i turn on the bulls game. >> this is my challenge for climate change. i drive a prius, i recycle and draw the line at composting. at the same time, i don't feel connected to the larger cultural shift to tell me what to do policy wise. i don't think it's my driving prius that is going to make a difference. >> that's it. ultimately, individual actions add up to the future we are talking about. it cannot be a voluntary -- it can't be the fact that all of us start -- >> it's just an -- the conversation about what to do about it because we have been unable to sort of squarely face it is very immature and has
irrationalism and denying involved in it. the idea that the implications of this for people's daily life is they have to give up things and live in a cave and shiver is ridiculous. there are attractive futures aslable to us but we haven't had that conversation. >> i want to get back to this point that chris made about the potential for despair, to think that this problem is so big and it's too late to confront it and we are not going to do anything about it. it's not true. if you look at what the science has to say, there is still time to stabilize greenhouse concentrations below levels where we start to see the real dangerous impacts. we don't have a lot of time to do that. >> that is exactly the problem, right? on one side there is enough time, let's put it off. the other is it's too late. you see people opposed to any kind of climate policy. sometimes in the same talk. we will talk more about this
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only at the home depot and starting at only $24.97 a gallon. we're back talking about what we talk about when we talk about climate change and when we don't talk about climate change. i have michael mann here and dave roberts here. one of the things i think is most -- in fact, the most disturbing thing about the republican primary, and there have been a lot of disturbing things. about the bedrock on climate change has now been undone and we are seeing all of these people in the republican primary field have to run away from previously just saying what was accepted and sensible. yeah, the earth is warming and we are putting a lot of carbon in it.
dave, you brought a show and tell of a great example of this happening. >> sure. people may not know this but newt gingrich and his writing partner terry maple wrote a book several years ago which took climate change, the science of it for granted and talked about create ago conservative response to it which you would think would be the productive thing. >> which is that second conversation we are talking about? >> right, right. segue to the present. they were assembling this book of essays about the problems of the day and one was going to be about climate change from katherine heyho who is an evangelical and she spent a lot of time writing this chapter. then found out via seeing a clip on television, you know, a woman approached gingrich at an event and said i heard you had -- why did you do that? >> here is gingrich's response. >> i need to ask you about this.
rush had on his program about your next book coming out has a chapter on global warming and it's written by -- >> we didn't know they were doing that. >> good. sounds like a good idea. i thought where would you want to have something like that -- good. all i needed to know. >> here is a tweet from the author katherine heyho is her name. she tweets. nice to hear that gingrich is tossing my climate chapter in the trash. a hundred unpaid hours i could have spent playing with my baby. she finds out about it on tv he has killed the chapter she wrote! >> this is like gingrich taking back the anti-bane chapter. how did this get in my book? someone had a secret chapter into his book. >> michael, this brings us to the experience you've had with
climate scientists. there is a scientific consensus of robust on global warming but a concerted effort by certain moneyed interests and ideological interests to undo that and seeing it it play out politically. you've been on the wrong side of this. i mean, you're on the right side in terms of the fact, but you've been the subject. i want you to tell us a little bit about what it has been like to find yourself faced with the wrath of all of the money and effort being put into disrupt the consensus that you and your peers are working to establish. >> well, you know, i started out my scientific career as a theoretical scientist. sort of realized when i had done all but actually written a thesis that i was interested in tackling a bigger problem, something that had greater real world application. and saw that there were scientists at the university i
was studying who were using theoretical models and using the laws of physics to build theoretically model of earth's system and it seemed like a fascinating problem to work on. i had no idea when i moved into that area that i would become an unreluctant sort of figure in this larger debate that we are having today about the reality of humans cause climate change. some people call this the politicization. i call it something else in my book. the use of science now to wage politics in a way that we never saw it before. >> you were one of the people that developed what has become an iconic image of climate change. in the title of your book it's called the hockey stick. could we put up the hockey stick graph for a moment? this is the hockey stick graph.
it shows temperatures over time. i want to have you explain this graph, what it means and how people try to undermine it and attack you after we take this break. [ male announcer ] drinking a smoothie with no vegetable nutrition? ♪ [ gong ] strawberry banana! [ male announcer ] for a smoothie with real fruit plus veggie nutrition new v8 v-fusion smoothie. could've had a v8. but my nose is still runny.
i have michael mann here author of "the hockey stick." e with you showed the graph that shows temperatures over a very long period of time that you helped put together. how did you put this graph together and why has it been the subject of such intense ferocious attack? >> we know from modern measurements that the globe is warmed. no legitimate debate about whether the globe has warmed over the past century. a little less than one degree celsius. a degree and a half fahrenheit. even 15 years ago there was a
legitimate debate to be had whether that sort of warming might arise natural because of the natural fluctuations of the climate and it might not be related to the greenhouse gases pumped into the atmosphere. that was the belief that time. ironically, some of my earlier work lent credence to the proposition that there may be more ninto the system than some models were producing. ironically, some people seized upon my early work. but when we published this work in the late 1990s where we -- we could only go back about a century with thermometers measurements. we wanted to know how unusual is that warming in a longer term context and forced to turn to tree rains and corals and ice corals and used what we call
indirect measurements and piece it -- >> what the graph shows, yes, temperatures do fluctuate. there is what is called ice age from 1500 to 1900 roughly thereabouts and we see a decline and then a spike which is completely unmatched in the previous thousand years and shows, i think quite clearly, that something very different is happening since the industrial revolution got going. >> that's right. >> this work has been attacked. you've found yourself the subject of a lot of attacks online, on tv. you've been conservative media figures. what is the experience like having your work singled out and sort of being essentially a private citizen and suddenly being a public figure who is being just hammered day in and day out? >> as i said, i was sort of a reluctant figure in the climate change debate because of our work. which we didn't realize it at the time. but once we published that graph and when it was reproduced in the ipcc, the intergovernmental
panel on climate change report in 2001, and it became an icon in the climate change debate, we were at the center of the attacks against the science. i chose to not shrink from that situation, but to try to use it, to try to use the fact we were suddenly at the center of this larger debate to try to inform and try to educate people about what we actually know about the climate system what are the real uncertainties and what implications do they have for policy when it comes to dealing with the matter. so i guess i've developed a thick skin. i can deal with the personal attacks. what i find so disstressing are the attacks i see not only against colleagues of mine but increasingly against their family members. family members of scientists are now being targeted with death threats. there is just no place for that
sort of thing in any sort of public discourse. >> do you think that the -- obviously, there a lot of money on the table, right? and a lot of the denialism is funded by fossil fuel interests who are pursuing an economically irrational course and not make as much money in a future climate regime. do you think they are winning the battle in terms of the way they have been able to pick at, politically at least, this -- the general public feeling this is settled matter? >> i think they have. at some level they have delayed action by, to some extent, convincing the media and convincing journalists this should be treated as a debate between two opposing sides of equal merit, which is isn't. there really is no legitimate scientific case for the denial of human-caused climate change. yet from the media treatment of
the matter, it often seems as if this is a contested matter. now, there are legitimate uncertainties in the science but the fact we are changing the climate is not one of them. >> right. >> dave, you're someone who spends a lot of time looking at the public data opinion and something i've been looking at a lot for the book i've been working on. it seems a polarization at least. >> the most important thing to understand about it, you get these graphs of public opinion and when it plunges like this, people go groping for these borrowed sociological explanations. if you split it into left and right the plunge is entirely on the right. it's entirely a political issue of the right rejecting this. so it's not the public at large. i think it's a subspecies of the issue of the right. sort of tthe post modernism. it's a death panel and they have their own insular media
environment now where they dictate what they like. it doesn't matter. this is part of that larger problem and very much along the same lines. >> what is so interesting is that climate has become amazingly a kind of like a culture word issue. it's become that opposing cap and trade and invoking cap and trade is like gay marriage and become one of these panoply of issues that all kind of run together as part of your sort of identifying badge as a conservative is that, of course, you don't believe in -- >> except the evangelicals many feel -- there is a strong evangelical this is god's creation. we have to protect it group that splits off from gay marriage. >> yes. >> it's a small minority at the right of the right but they are so loud and have such loud megaphones. i want to disagree with michael
about recent coverage of this in the mainstream outlets the he said/she said thing it's not really done any more. ironically, i said before they want to cover things with conflict. that was the conflict hook that allowed them to cover science. with that conflict gone you don't get one-sided stories but fewer story. >> all right. michael mann thanks for coming. i appreciate the work you do. >> it was my pleasure. thank you. >> what do we know now that we didn't know last week? my answers are after this. ♪ you're singing with a broken string ♪ ♪ tell me what you really mean ♪ do you know what you want? ♪ while beating up on yesterday ♪ ♪ rolling on, moving on [ female announcer ] the space of a small suv. and more ways to connect to your world.
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a cruise ship out there run aground off coast of italy and officials are trying to figure out how that happened. the king of bain. is newt gingrich changing his tune? we will discuss that. tim tebow phenomenon. why has his name been brought up in connection with the 2012 presidential election. you probably nope the answer. but don answer right now. we will talk about that coming up. what do we now now we didn't know last week? republicans put mitt romney's record on trial and not just private equity but all of financial capitalism and know it's a testament to our economic times and skepticism that people feel that gingrich and perry think progress to be made among republican voters attacking the ruthless logic to which romney has committed himself. we know mitt romney thinks
shameful and taboo. we know that james o'keith iii likely violated instate election laws when he tried to get ballots in new hampshire using the name of recently deceased voters and o'keith acorn is on probation. the poor teenager of color he likely would be facing harsh sanctions right about now. we now know that ten years after guantanamo bay opened as an island outside the law 779 prisoners have passed through and only six of those have been convicted. thanks to the american civil liberties union report guantanamo by the numbers we know the youngest prisoner was 13, the oldest was 98. the percentage of prisoners captured by american troops was 5%. the percentage turned over to coalition forces in response to a bounty offer was 86% and the
amount offered by u.s. and pakistani and afghan villagers to turn someone in was millions of dollars and take care of your family, your tribe the rest of were life. we know that lakshar was never charged with a crime after serving in guantanamo. trying to find a hard time find ago job. we know he has received no adequate restitution for the horrific crime our government committed against him. we know the revolving door in washington spun fast for one look into the former chief regulator of the commodities future system. th we know in washington there is often no better way to audition for a lucrative career in the private sector than by failing in the public sector.
a moderate who alerted us to this story the arizona governor jan brewer sold the state senate and house and her own executive buildings in 2010 to raise quick cash and wants to buy them back. we know it's a sign of progress when a republican governor who warns of, quote, ever expanding government threatening our civil liberties has a moment of pride and a good idea for people to own their own house of government. we know austerity measures in greece are taking a toll on lives. saying hundreds of parents have asked them to take care of their children because they can't afford to look after them. 4-year-old named anna found by a teacher clutching a note saying i will not be picking anna up today because i cannot afford to look after her. please take good care. sorry. p. we believe that clim change is serious problem seems to be rising. a new poll founds 64% say global
is a somewhat serious problem and 30% saying it's very series. we know a poll that few -- we know that in brazil a new law says that workers who answer work e-mails on their smart phones after the end of their shifts can qualify for overtime. we don't don't know whether the u.s. will but brakes on it but i've been opting to put down the iphone and pick up the baby when i get home. what do my guests know now that they didn't know before the week began? we will find out after this. you know when i grow up, i'm going to own my own restaurant. i want to be a volunteer firefighter. when i grow up, i want to write a novel. i want to go on a road trip.
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went back through the numbers at the center for constitutional rights. i didn't know that more men have died in guantanamo than have actually gone to trial. >> wow. that's really intense. >> recently there was another fatality. you said the last person to come out of guantanamo? >> there used to be 172 people there, but someone died. the last people that came out was in a body bag. >> emery, what do we now we didn't know when the week began? >> we have been talking about guantanamo but domestic policy on the foreign policy side. what i didn't know when the week began was that algeria may well be a country ready to pop. there are -- >> interesting. >> -- demonstrations around corruption and corruption and housing, that in itself is not news but they seem to be growing. there was a big demonstration after friday prayers. clearly the algerian government is extremely worried so i would say we ought to be watching
algeria. >> a great thing to keep our eye on. syria, the uprising in syria continues and that story has been very difficult i think for us to cover because there is really not very much press in there and we're not getting a lot of footage. the reports we hear are horrific and ges stating which is that people are being massacred in the streets baelve by but that continues. because syrian government has been successful in tamping that down. algeria, we will keep our eye on. >> keep an eye. >> alexis, what should we know? >> what we now now, we knew a little bit before, but a study that came out of the yale child study center talked about how young african-american boys are consistently disciplined more. >> interesting. >> and during preschool and how that leads to further disconnection from, you know, from society. we have 1 out of 3 young african-american men going to
prison. i guess the study is if there were -- if you are an african-american male born today, 1 out of 3 has the likelihood of going into prison. >> this is about the amount of african-american boys in disciplinary face. it is about how crucial that window is in terms of determining all sorts of later in life outcomes. that's a fascinating study. >> published at the yale child center. >> dave roberts, what do you now know you didn't know at the beginning of the week? >> we know the climate is still changing. >> breaking news! >> there is more extreme weather events, more to come. we still know that we are running out of time. we know that it's cheaper to deal with it now than it will be -- >> you sound like you're boring yourself! >> than it will be later and none of that is new and precisely the problem as we saw today in this media study.
>> yeah. my thanks to vince warren and ann-marine johnson and alexis and dave roberts. great discussion today. i really enjoyed it. thank you for joining us. coming up next is weekends with alex witt. join us tomorrow morning. our panel will include the one and own jack abramoff weighing in on money and politics and his record. what he did and whether he was held account and whether he can find redemption or ask for forgiveness. until then, stay up-to-date with us at facebook and up with chris. see you tomorrow. thanks for getting up. i had enough of feeling embarrassed about my skin.
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